osama bin laden is dead

[Zhukov]

You're cracking me up here.

Originally Posted by Pentegarn

Your words are empty because you flat out talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say you know justice and revenge are tied together, then raise an objection because the US illustrates this.

No. I say I know that they are mired (your word, good choice) together, and I raise an objection to the US pretending that this is the pure and good justice that a decent country should aspire too.

You say you want a world without executions, but it is a naive desire. The whole point of a severe punishment is to deter those who might commit violence, but are afraid of the consequences from doing so. Maybe you think if we eliminate punishment then the end of crime will follow, but those of us not living in Fantasy Land know better.

We don't have executions in my country, and our violent crime rate is much, much lower than in the USA. There are many, many factors, but executions certainly aren't the deterrent that you think they are. Are you saying that executing Osama will have scared radical Islamic terrorists into lowering their weapons? Surely not.

I don't think that the elimination of executions will end crime, no.

And as an aside to the whole communist thing, didn't communist Russia start with a whole slew of executions without a trial?

No, revolutionary Russia had a lot of executions without trial, during a civil war. Start another thread if you want to talk about this, because I don't think you are interested in hearing what I have to say about the matter, you just want to get what you think is a low blow in at me.

You are wrong, mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent. There can be no compromise in this. I know you think there can though, so how do you propose we compromise with monsters like this? Talk them down from killing ten thousand people to only five thousand? Asking serial rapists to keep it to no more than one rape a month? You say executions need to be eliminated but you don't offer a solution that works to replace it. You aren't going to either because you know there isn't one, you are just full of wishes that are unrealistic and you point to those saying 'look how good and noble my ideals are' But they aren't, they are foolish, short sighted and dangerous to a cohesive society.

Uh, that is a very, very hardline point of view. NO MERCY TO CRIMINALS. I don't think it's worth me arguing about it with you since all I can say is "mercy to the guilty is NOT treason to the innocent".

How do I propose to control violent crimes without executions? Hmmm, I guess you could try lengthy prison sentences. God knows if that would ever gain popularity in any nation's legal system - but one day it might just happen.

For everyone else out there, here is a list of countries that execute:

China
Iran
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
USA
Yemen
Sudan
Vietnam
Syria
Japan
Egypt
Libya
Bangladesh
Thailand
Singapore
Botswana
Malaysia
North Korea

You are keeping good company, America. I guess every other country in the world just doesn't run as cohesive societies as these marvelous nations on the list.

Assange is a good example, and saying his victims are arguable proves my point about how you don't give a damn about the victims, so thanks for that.

Assange is a bad example - who are his victims? Plus it's only one. Constantly defending criminals might require more than just Osama and arguably one more example. Jesus would have invited Osama over to his house and broken some bread with him, I think saying he should have gotten a trial is quite basic on the 'defending a mass murderer' scale.

[Zhukov]

*note, that list is not ALL the countries that execute. There are countries that retain it but do not use it, and there are countries that have it for 'special circumstances'. There are 41 countries that regularly use it, that list was the main offenders.

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

You're cracking me up here.

Trust me, you are cracking without my help

Originally Posted by Zhukov

No. I say I know that they are mired (your word, good choice) together, and I raise an objection to the US pretending that this is the pure and good justice that a decent country should aspire too.

So now you object to them calling it 'pure and good' justice. I recall the word justice use, but not the words pure and good being used in the sentence you initially objected to. Well if you are not making your point, why not change what it is mid debate? Good strategy. Here's some irony/hypocrisy for you, remember when you posted this?

Originally Posted by Zhukov

So now they are saying that Osama wasn't defending himself and that he had surrendered. The official story seems to change a lot, How can you trust these people?

Seems your official story just changed. Funny you took that line of debate then did the very same thing just now

Originally Posted by Zhukov

We don't have executions in my country, and our violent crime rate is much, much lower than in the USA. There are many, many factors, but executions certainly aren't the deterrent that you think they are. Are you saying that executing Osama will have scared radical Islamic terrorists into lowering their weapons? Surely not.

I like how you selectively read what I say, did I not say the war on terror is like the war on drugs? A pointless endeavor? But that is besides the point, I never claimed executing him would stop terrorism, I said it was a justified thing to do. Did hitler dying stop people from practicing Nazism? No. Did Hitler need to be killed? Yes, and the only reason he never was was because he beat his hunters to the punch and killed himself (allegedly)

Originally Posted by Zhukov

I don't think that the elimination of executions will end crime, no.

Funny, you could have fooled me. But this goes back to that whole talking out of both sides of your mouth thing.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

No, revolutionary Russia had a lot of executions without trial, during a civil war. Start another thread if you want to talk about this, because I don't think you are interested in hearing what I have to say about the matter, you just want to get what you think is a low blow in at me.

No I was making a point about your inconsistent views, of course you would try and excuse/justify how communism's ugly birth was executed. (pun intended)

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Uh, that is a very, very hardline point of view. NO MERCY TO CRIMINALS. I don't think it's worth me arguing about it with you since all I can say is "mercy to the guilty is NOT treason to the innocent".

How do I propose to control violent crimes without executions? Hmmm, I guess you could try lengthy prison sentences. God knows if that would ever gain popularity in any nation's legal system - but one day it might just happen.

and America does that too with many more criminals than it executes, but I notice how you seem to ignore that little fact

Originally Posted by Zhukov

For everyone else out there, here is a list of countries that execute:

China
Iran
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
USA
Yemen
Sudan
Vietnam
Syria
Japan
Egypt
Libya
Bangladesh
Thailand
Singapore
Botswana
Malaysia
North Korea

You are keeping good company, America. I guess every other country in the world just doesn't run as cohesive societies as these marvelous nations on the list.

I already pointed out how selective you are, no need to mention it again

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Assange is a bad example - who are his victims? Plus it's only one. Constantly defending criminals might require more than just Osama and arguably one more example. Jesus would have invited Osama over to his house and broken some bread with him, I think saying he should have gotten a trial is quite basic on the 'defending a mass murderer' scale.

I already established his victims more than once, you ignore them because they some of them are American business owners and to you they have no rights for the crime of (gasp!) being rich

But as I said, you care about criminals, not victims, otherwise why fight so hard for bin Laden? Who fights this hard for a monster anyway? What sort of depraved human really takes the line you are taking? What went so wrong with you in your life that this... this is how you think and feel about society?