Thugs in school

[VinceZeb]

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33249

Thugs in school

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Posted: June 25, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


Marc Epstein teaches history at Jamaica High School in Queens, N.Y. He wrote the summer 2003 issue of Education Next's feature story, titled "Security Detail." If an American, who passed away as late as 1960, were somehow resurrected, he'd probably think Epstein fabricated the story. Unfortunately, the story is true for too many of America's schools.

Jamaica High School, with a student body of 2,500, has eight deans, Epstein being one of them. Student discipline occupies much of their time. The school has an assistant principal for security, and two secretaries and a school aide assigned to the dean's office. There are 10 school security agents assigned by the New York Police Department to patrol Jamaica High School's halls; there're more when there's random scanning of students for weapons. At least $1 million is budgeted for school safety, and that excludes the cost of the 10 security agents paid by the police department.

Epstein's story samples a number of school incidents. A teacher saw a student take a gun from his locker to show other students. The security agent was informed and did nothing. Epstein searched for the student, but he had fled the building. When the student returned, he denied possession of the gun. He was searched by the police, who found nothing. After an investigation, which consumed a couple thousand dollars worth of personnel hours, a hearing officer transferred the student to another school.

A learning-disabled student, denied a hall pass, called his teacher a crippled bitch and threw an object at her. A security agent who witnessed the incident removed the student. At the student's hearing, a man appearing on behalf of the student's mother asked the teacher, "Do you consider yourself crippled, because if you do, then you are in fact a crippled bitch and the charges ought to be dropped." Because of the protections of federal special education law, the student was permitted to return to the school immediately.

Epstein says court decisions and school regulations have made schools a safe haven for dangerous criminals. Schools must admit young people convicted of serious felonies, such as armed robbery.

The teacher's union is part of the problem, as well. During the 1990s, the United Federation of Teachers deemed that forcing teachers to supervise home rooms was unprofessional. Through contract negotiations, this method of student control was abolished. UFT also argued that it was unprofessional for teachers to have cafeteria supervisory duties; they were replaced by school aides. The cafeteria quickly became student gang turf, where fights and other disorderly behavior became routine. School aides are easily intimidated by students, and for fear of retaliation, they rarely confront gang-affiliated students.

According to an August 2002 Department of Education report, "School Crime Patterns," "High schools with the highest levels of violence tended to be located in urban areas and have a high percentage of minority students (black and Hispanic), compared to high schools that reported no crime to the police." The report also said that 60 percent of violent school crimes occur in 4 percent of the nation's high schools.

Is there a sane reason for today's adults tolerating student behavior unimaginable 50 years ago? Don't try the poverty excuse. I attended Philadelphia's Benjamin Franklin High School from 1950 to 1954, along with students who, myself included, were among the poorest of the city's poor. Yes, there was the occasional after-school fight, with fists, but I can't recall a single incident of a student cursing or assaulting a teacher.

What to do? It's a no-brainer. Students who are alien and hostile to the education process ought to be removed.

You say, "What will we do with them?" I say that's a secondary issue. The first priority is to stop thugs from making education impossible for everyone else.



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Walter Williams is the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va.

[Helm]

If the head hurts, chop it off. It doesn't hurt any more if you do, does it?

[El Blanco]

Works on tumors, doesn't it?

There is no quick fix solution to make the schools better.

There are a few things I would do given the chance:

1) End social promotion. You can't read, you are unable to handle work beyond 2nd grade.

2)Renegociate with the teacher's union. I can't stand the bitch running the NYC UFT. She screams tenure every chance she gets. You can under pay the people she represents, but don't touch tenure. You can flood their ranks with under qualified, but don't touch tenure. You can place teachers in fucking warzones so they fear for their lives every day, but don't touch tenure. Anybody guessing where I'm going here? If I give the them those three and she refuses them to save tenure, she destroys the UFT.

3) Uniforms. Don't give me that express indivuality crap. They all dress the same anyway.

4)Find a way to make parents acountable. Too many parents see school as a place to drop off their little brats for a few hours and then think the learning ends at 3 o'clock.

[The_voice_of_reason]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

3) Uniforms. Don't give me that express indivuality crap. They all dress the same anyway.

I don't really see how uniforms will stop school violence, and most these problems occur at poor schools, how are they going to afford uniforms?

[The_Rorschach]

You simply haven't lived long enough Mr Reason.

And Blanco, I agree with you one hundred percent save for one small ammendment: Re-instate authority of the school to administer punishment.

I went to private school for the first few years of my education, and I found myself switched more than a few times. While I cannot remember the names of half the people I served in the Navy with, Mr. Chuck Wright will be etched in my mind until my dying day. Teachers must be able to do more than expell of suspend misbehaving students. A hiatus from school only rewards a student who has no interest in his classes otherwise.

[Vibecrewangel]

El Blanco / Ror - I'm with ya as well.

CA has an interesting set of issues that I think add to the problem of violence in schools. In CA you can be arrested and have your child taken away for spanking them. Yes, 3 slaps to the rump can be considered abuse if the child or someone else complains. If you yell at them in public and and a store manager calls the police the same thing can occur. And it happens a hell of a lot. Trying to discipline a child here has become near impossible. On the flip side, and you'll love this.......If a child gets in trouble with the law, the PARENTS get punished along with or instead of the child.

Liberal extremism at it's finest.

[ranxer]

i think the latest increases in violence in schools are a direct relation to gwb's practice of shooting first and asking questions later

hey vibecrew, has the birthrate taken a plummet since those abuse laws were passed? I can't imagine what parents are going through in CA, not that i spank my kid or yell, but my kid knowing about those laws might just use it against me if he's getting punished for something. another kids note.. i heard that part of the no child left behind program actually teaches kids about anonymous tip lines to turn in suspected terrorists(not sure yet if thats true), heh, i wonder how many kids turn in their parents for not giving them dessert.

[Helm]

i think the latest increases in violence in schools are a direct relation to gwb's practice of shooting first and asking questions later

What's the matter, couldn't think of anyone more generic and mediocre observation to make?


I dissagree with Blanco's assessment of the situation. But before I go on ranting about my point of view, I'd like to ask the participants of this thread to summarize what they feel education should be about.

[CaptainBubba]

Ror, that was HANDS DOWN, the SINGLE BEST explanation of something I have ever witnessed in my life. For those of you who may have by chance missed it, here was Ror's reponse to Reason's questioning of the effectivness of uniforms in stopping school violence.

You simply haven't lived long enough

My god... BRILLIANT. UNBE-FUCKING-LEIVABLE. Has anyone ever seen a more well thought out, backed up, and overall powerfully convincing argument?? I for one, don't think I'll EVER live long enough to see a one.

[El Blanco]

Uniforms would be tax funded. I'm not against putting in my fair share to clean things up.

And, yes, they do make a difference. Nothing ground breaking, but it makes life easier.

Punishment in schools has always perplexed me. Like Ror said about suspension and expulsion not working. Same with detention. The students who are regularly there don't care and are just taking up space. Find something for them to do. I used to think that you could make them work with the maintenance staff after school to clean up, but that causes a whole world of other problems.

A side note: A firend of mine teaches public high school in Jersey. He told me that if a student tries to punch a teacher, its considered assault with a deadly weapon. Anyone have stats on classroom violence in the state of New Jersey?

[Immortal Goat]

I agree that uniforms do have an effect on the mindset of people at school. I am not really sure how to explain it, but people seem less violent when they are all dressed the same in simple, plain clothes.

On the subject of punishment, I myself have recently seen the same three people in one of my classes blatently lie to the teacher about where they have been if they were late, they swear in the back of class non-stop, and one of them even pulls out his scrotum, fools around with it on the surface of his desk, and has people look at it by saying it is gum that was stuck there. They have all been given detention, and eventually suspended, but they would continue these behaviors. Maybe they NEEDED to be smacked a few times when they were younger, but they are rich brats, and they have NEVER been reprimanded.

It all falls back on the parents eventually. It is the PARENTS job, not the teachers, to discipline their children. Poor parenting only leads to nasty kids.

[AChimp]

Uniforms do dick all other than look stupid. Putting everyone in the same outfit won't change a single thing about their behaviour.

The real problem lies on the parents and their unwillingness to do anything about their kids' actions. Half the time when a kid gets in trouble at school for something serious like fighting or vandalism, the parents bitch out the school for making stuff up about their kid and what an angel he/she is. I shit you not.

There should be a totally anonymous vigilante group that goes around and kicks the shit out of asshole kids and their parents.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I agree with Chimpy. I think I could agree with Blanco's platform, while perhaps adding a few things, and removing one thing.

Uniforms don't work, they are a psychological pleasantry for parents and staff. I've known too many thugs and drug dealers who went to private Catholic schools, and when those uniforms come off, they are just like verybody else their age. They don't wear the uniforms when they're buying drugs on the corner, they're not wearing uniforms when they're parents aren't home to care, NOT because they are necessarily bad parents, but b/c they work two fucking jobs just to get by.

Kids find ways to make uniforms unique, too. How long is the skirt? What about hats? What about patches? Many schools with uniforms allow their students to be slightly flexible with the clothing, and those differences mean the WORLD when everybody is dressed the same.

[El Blanco]

Uniforms don't work, they are a psychological pleasantry for parents and staff. I've known too many thugs and drug dealers who went to private Catholic schools, and when those uniforms come off, they are just like verybody else their age. They don't wear the uniforms when they're buying drugs on the corner, they're not wearing uniforms when they're parents aren't home to care,

I went to Catholic school and we had those problems. And yes, as soon as they leave the school and peel off the uniforms, they go to being criminals.

As soon as the uniform comes off. They aren't dealing the drugs during class, they aren't toting pistols in plain sight. They kept it out of the school, which is my primary objective here.

Another thing is that the school considered any violation in a uniform, whether on school grounds or not, their problem. When you are in uniform, you represent the school. And the community knew this. Some morons got into a fight in the local McDonalds and forgot to take off their sweaters. They were suspended for a week.


And honestly, do active drug dealers and wannabe gangs really belong in school?

Kids find ways to make uniforms unique, too. How long is the skirt? What about hats? What about patches?

none of that in my highschool. Skirts were the same lengths( I have ugly knees anyway), no hats (I have never seen hats in a private school), only the school patch on the left breast.

The girls were pretty much stuck to the exact same thing most of the year. They got the short end of the stick on that one.

Guys got to wear kahkis and ties and thats where the individuality ended. White shirts, same sweaters etc

No jewlery or any of that crap and hair had meet certain standards.

80% of our seniors went to college.

Uniforms are not the solution, but they are a step in the right direction.

[The_voice_of_reason]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

No jewlery or any of that crap and hair had meet certain standards.

I would be pissed if they made me cut my hair.

[AChimp]

They aren't dealing the drugs during class, they aren't toting pistols in plain sight.

That's an exaggeration and you know it. The only time I have heard of someone displaying a gun in plain sight at school is right before they use it to shoot their classmates and themselves.

And we all know just how common school shootings are.

The majority of kids are good for the most part, and the average school does not have drug dealers and gangstas roaming the halls.

[El Blanco]

The only time I have heard of someone displaying a gun in plain sight at school is right before they use it to shoot their classmates and themselves.

Or roaming the halls in a shitty schools to prove how badass they are and that school officials can't stop them.

and the average school does not have drug dealers and gangstas roaming the halls.

Yes, they do, just some places have it a lot worse.

Originally Posted by The_voice_of_reason

I would be pissed if they made me cut my hair.

If your parents pay $3k for you to attend, you'd have a crop-top.

[AChimp]

Or roaming the halls in a shitty schools to prove how badass they are and that school officials can't stop them.

Uh huh, and I'm sure that you have seen this all the time. In fact, you probably know some of them and eat lunch at the same table in the cafeteria. IN FACT, any one of us could be packing heat to show that we are badass.

Yes, they do, just some places have it a lot worse.

Oh, sure, there's drug dealers and gangstas, but the problem isn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

"Oh no! That inner-city New York high school has drugs! AAAAAIIIIIEEEEE!!!!"

Whoopity-doo. At least they're buying them somewhere safe. Afterall, everyone has a gun, don't they?

[El Blanco]

Uh huh, and I'm sure that you have seen this all the time. In fact, you probably know some of them and eat lunch at the same table in the cafeteria. IN FACT, any one of us could be packing heat to show that we are badass.

No, they didn't have it like that in my high school. But, Truman public high school down the block from us did. Want to guess how you could tell the two schools apart?

Oh, sure, there's drug dealers and gangstas, but the problem isn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

What American high school did you go to?

Whoopity-doo. At least they're buying them somewhere safe. Afterall, everyone has a gun, don't they?

What the hell are you talking about? The baby-thug in the gym is a safe connection?

[ziggytrix]

A thug is a thug, gun or no. There have always been thugs, there always will be thugs, so long as we continue to fear and hate each other.

I would think the gun thing would be limited mostly to schools in cities with large (I dunno, 100,000+?) populations. Anyone had this problem going to a small town school in the past decade? Im only guessing here.

[kahljorn]

The old city I lived in just started "getting bad recently", i wasnt going to school anymore, but I remember hearing about some guy getting shanked. That's like the first thing like that in the whole city, other than a drunk driving accident death thing. Funny thing is I met the guy who got Shanked, and remembered thinking I wish he would've died.
Then a cop got shot but lived.

Oh, and when I was going to school some pregant chick got stomped on.

[Protoclown]

Captain Bubba made me LOL

And I fucking HATE HATE HATE the very idea of uniforms, in school, work, military, whatever. Fuck uniforms. I think uniforms are a bunch of shit.

[Anonymous]

No, they didn't have it like that in my high school. But, Truman public high school down the block from us did. Want to guess how you could tell the two schools apart?

Kids in private school are either:
from a well-off family
or
from a family that really seriously cares about their child and the environments they are in, and their future, if they would sacrifice the money for them (which they didn't have much of) to be in a private school.

So by this you can conclude that the less "thug-like" behavior and lack of weapons is linked to the family upbringing they come from as opposed to a uniform.

And one other thing.... smacking your kids - yeah, what a great way to teach them to not be thugs!

[El Blanco]

My high school was the latter of the two.

And uniforms are not the be all and end all, but the are part of the solution.

Yes, "thug" behavior is a problem that is rooted in the home, but enforcing discipline at school helps also. If you read my first post in the thread, you would notice how I put responsibility on parents.

smacking your kids - yeah, what a great way to teach them to not be thugs!

There is a difference between a whack on the ass and pummeling the kid's head.

My parents would hit me and my brothers if we were disrespectful. And we all turned out just fine. Sometimes a little negative reinforcement is nessaccery.

You should hear my dad choke when he over hears that bullshit "punishing you hurts me than it hurts you" crap yuppies are spewing to their kids these days.