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Old Apr 2nd, 2005, 10:01 PM        no more Pope.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle...5cb8f9ac8.html

Prague, 2 April 2005 (RFE/RL) -- John Paul II, the first Slavic pope, has died at the age of 84. He passed away at 9:37 p.m. at his private apartment in the Vatican.


The pope -- whose pontificate was the third-longest in the history of the Roman Catholic Church -- died after suffering heart and kidney failure following two hospitalizations in as many months.

Born Karol Jozef Wojtyla in 1920, John Paul was shaped by the cataclysms and crises of 20th-century Europe. As a young man, he survived the Nazi occupation of his native Poland, witnessed the Jewish Holocaust firsthand, and went on to lead the Roman Catholic Church as a beacon of hope during the dark years of communism in Eastern Europe.

Elected pope in the midst of the Cold War in 1978, John Paul played a key role in the defeat of totalitarianism across Eastern Europe.

Pope John Paul II, as he chose to be known, addressed the crowd in St. Peter's Square after his election by the Vatican's Sacred College of Cardinals on 16 October 1978: "I am not sure I can explain myself in your -- 'our' -- Italian language (long applause). If I make mistakes will you correct me?"

Karol Jozef Wojtyla was the first non-Italian pope to sit on the throne of St. Peter in 455 years. The cardinal of Krakow was also the first Slavic pontiff and, at the age of 58, the youngest pope in 132 years.

Those facts alone seemed to signal an upheaval was coming. But the revolution had only just begun. Less than eight months after becoming pope, Wojtyla returned to Poland.

His triumphant nine-day visit, during nationwide food shortages, embarrassed the communist authorities and helped sow the seeds of resistance in Poland. The pope would go on to lend vital support to the anticommunist Solidarity movement.

In 1995, John Paul reflected in an address to the United Nations General Assembly. He stressed his belief that Christian ideals helped inspire the people of Eastern Europe to cast off the chains of communism.

"The nonviolent revolutions of 1989 demonstrated that the quest for freedom cannot be suppressed," Pope John Paul said.. "It arises from a recognition of the inestimable dignity and value of the human person and it cannot fail to be accompanied by a commitment on behalf of the human person. Modern totalitarianism has been, first and foremost, an assault on the dignity of the person, an assault which has gone even to the point of denying the inalienable value of the individual's life. The revolutions of 1989 were made possible by the commitment of brave men and women inspired by different and an ultimately more profound and powerful vision."

Brave is a word many used for the pope in 1981, when he improbably survived after being shot twice at close range in Rome's St. Peter's Square.

His would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, at first told authorities he was with Bulgarian intelligence, known to work for the Soviet KGB. Agca later retracted that. And, when John Paul visited the prison to forgive him, a stunned Agca asked, "How did I not kill you?"

John Paul was to undergo -- and survive -- further hardships.

In the early 1990s, a pre-cancerous tumor was removed from his colon, fueling speculation his end was near. Such talk intensified when he had bone-replacement surgery after breaking his leg in 1994. He suffered from Parkinson's disease -- a fact officially acknowledged only in 2001.

As pontiff, his energy would carry him to more than 120 countries over a quarter century, making him the most traveled pope in history.

Like no one before, John Paul used the tools of the modern age to broadcast his message to all corners of the planet.

And with acting skills honed at Krakow's Jagiellonian University, he made countless appearances on television, at youth festivals and before crowds of a million pilgrims at a time -- usually in their native languages.

Following the Asian tsunami, the pope addressed Vatican pilgrims on 6 January 2005: "While I renew my prayers for the young victims of the [tsunami] in Asia, I do not forget those children who are victims of hunger and sickness, war and terrorism, or those children kidnapped, lost or exploited in vile trafficking."

Jesus himself, the pope often said, raised such concerns nearly 2,000 years ago.

Indeed, the substance of John Paul's message remained deeply anchored in tradition.

On such issues as abortion, birth control, homosexuality, divorce, and the ordination of women as priests, John Paul remained uncompromising and drew strong criticism -- even from within the church. He once noted: "The church cannot be an association of free thinkers .... You cannot take a vote on the truth."

John Paul urged priests to be morally and socially engaged, but warned them against direct involvement in politics. He criticized the doctrine of "liberation theology," for example, while touring Latin America.

The pope stayed true to his vision of Catholicism as a faith at once modern in its concern for humanity's moral and social needs, and yet unchangeable in its guiding principles. To him, the two principles went hand in hand.

The pope also worked to break down ethnic and ecumenical barriers. In a visit to the Holy Lands in 2000, John Paul made a historic formal apology on behalf of the Catholic Church for anti-Semitism.

"I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any places," he said.

Legacies are often mixed. Often, they take years to be fairly evaluated. But one thing is clear: Karol Wojtyla helped to shape the times he lived in -- as much as they shaped him.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 10:26 AM       
Joey Ratz is in the house.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 02:00 PM       
Ya, pick the guy who was in the Hitler Youth and worked a AAA battery for the Germans during WW2. Thats going to be great for the image problems we're having.

I'm kidding. I'm sure he's very cuddly and lovable up close.

He's not supposed to be the big, sweeping, charasmatic guy JP2 was. He's an acedemic who is going to focus a lot more on doctrine for his 4 or 5 years and then we get either a Latin or African Pope. Just a compromise with the conservatives.

Not that I'm looking forward to Benedict XVI kicking it or anything.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 02:17 PM       
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Originally Posted by El Blanco
Ya, pick the guy who was in the Hitler Youth and worked a AAA battery for the Germans during WW2.
I'm sure I don't have an unbiased source to go on, but didn't he desert?
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 02:31 PM       
actually, I though he had just finished basic by the time the war ended. either that or he was dismissed because of his training for the priesthood.

besides, he was recruited into the hitler youth. it was law. if you didn't join, you were an enemy of the state.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 02:39 PM       
I'm sure he will be very progressive and open-minded and bring about interesting changes that will help the Catholic Church regain its relevance in the modern world.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 03:06 PM       
Ha ha ha! The pope's a Kraut!
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 03:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype
actually, I though he had just finished basic by the time the war ended. either that or he was dismissed because of his training for the priesthood.

besides, he was recruited into the hitler youth. it was law. if you didn't join, you were an enemy of the state.
Yes, he was allowed to leave the Hitler Youth because he was going into the priesthood. I was just making a joke.

He did work the battery during the war, but he claims he used sick days when the ally raids happened.

I'm fairly "meh" about this desiscion. I see him as a caretaker. I know that sounds awful.....but I am evil afterall.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 03:07 PM       
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Originally Posted by sspadowsky
I'm sure he will be very progressive and open-minded and bring about interesting changes that will help the Catholic Church regain its relevance in the modern world.
Regain? I'm pretty sure its still relevent.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 05:38 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar Woman
Ha ha ha! The pope's a Kraut!
Ain't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanco
Regain? I'm pretty sure its still relevent.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=29948
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 07:10 PM       
Thats Buchanan focusing on the US. The UN doesn't have a whole lot of sway in here, either.

Does that mean its about to disappear?

The Catholic Church is expanding in Africa and the Eastern Asia (not at an exponential rate, but its happening). Its tremendously powerful in Latin America and the Vtican holds tremendous political sway amongst international leaders.

I am not about to think that an institution that holds influence over 1 billion people is irrelevent.

It is not the total juggernaut it once was, but the Catholic Church is still tremendously powerful.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 07:40 PM       
what we need is another crusades dag nabbit
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 08:52 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
I am not about to think that an institution that holds influence over 1 billion people is irrelevent.

It is not the total juggernaut it once was, but the Catholic Church is still tremendously powerful.
And besides, read the very beginning of Buchanan's article:

"Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism."

He isn't questioning the relevance of the Church, he's questioning Vatican II. So this doesn't really substantiate what Sspad said, cuz if guys like Buchanan had their way, you'd see a far less "progressive" Church than what you've seen post-Vatican II.
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Old Apr 20th, 2005, 09:25 PM       
Can you imagine what would have happened if Vatican II hadn't made some of those changes? Think people feel cut off from the Church now? It wasn't long ago that mass was only offered in Latin.
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Old Apr 21st, 2005, 01:47 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspadowsky
I'm sure he will be very progressive and open-minded and bring about interesting changes that will help the Catholic Church regain its relevance in the modern world.
Regain? I'm pretty sure its still relevent.
OK, I'll clarify, and I admit that I was not raised Catholic, and have somewhat limited knowledge of its doctrine. However, what I do know of it is archaic to the point of being ludicrous, i.e. not being able to marry, no female priests, their stance birth control, etc. Hell, they just officlally admitted in 1993 that Galileo was right. That's what I was drving at with the "relevance" remark.
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Old Apr 21st, 2005, 10:14 AM       
Furthermore, there is a desperate priest shortage that may very well be leading would be Catholics into the welcoming arms of evangelicals in places like Latin America. In Africa, some nuns are secretly advocating condom use because of the AIDS crisis.

So maybe it isn't so much the relevance of Catholicism that is being questioned, but perhaps the relevance of the Vatican. I'm curious though, whether our resident Catholics feel that the Vatican IS the Catholic Church, or vice-versa.
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Old Apr 21st, 2005, 10:51 AM       
The Vatican is the adminstrative center and the place where most of the critical thinking and debating on doctrine happens. The Church itself is in no one place. Its the people themselves.

Its not even our Holy City. Jerusalem is.

I'm not saying it isn't imprtant, but Catholicism was around well before the Vatican was.
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Old Apr 21st, 2005, 11:35 AM       
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Its not even our Holy City. Jerusalem is.
But since that place is a dump, why not hang out where all the pretty statues and architecture is, eh?
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Old Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:23 AM       
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Hell, they just officlally admitted in 1993 that Galileo was right. That's what I was drving at with the "relevance" remark.
No, I believe they apologized for showing the means of torture to Galileo, who was also good friends with the Pope at the time, so let's not throw this out there as a strong indictment of the Church.

Furthermore, there isn't really any proof that allowing women to be priests, allowing priests to marry, lightening up on contraception, etc., would actually broaden the Church. Like the article Ziggy posted argues, the decline of the Church here in America has happened despite the liberalization of Vatican II.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy
Furthermore, there is a desperate priest shortage that may very well be leading would be Catholics into the welcoming arms of evangelicals in places like Latin America. In Africa, some nuns are secretly advocating condom use because of the AIDS crisis.
I don't really see how the three connect. An American shortage in priests is resulting in a swing towards Latin Evangelicalism? So what's the answer? Allow women in America to become priests, and then Latin America will become Roman Catholic (because they certainly aren't now)...?

And the actions of "some" nuns means very little to me. The AIDS crisis should, without question, be one of the top priorities for the Church in the 21st Century. It's difficult to go into third world countries and cultures, where large families may be the norm, and argue for abstinence. Tossing out free rubbers alone isn't the only possible solution.

Quote:
So maybe it isn't so much the relevance of Catholicism that is being questioned, but perhaps the relevance of the Vatican. I'm curious though, whether our resident Catholics feel that the Vatican IS the Catholic Church, or vice-versa.
The Vatican is the bureacratic structure that directs the Church (with perhaps the Eastern Church getting a slight pass). The Pope is the spiritual leader and interpreter here on Earth, but no, the Vatican is not the Church (and your assumption that the Vatican is the problem is not necessarily accurate either).
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Old Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:30 AM       
Because the priest shortage is NOT strictly an American problem. I was listening to an interview with a priest somewhere in central/south america (I forget where exactly) and he was talking about how it was a terrible problem that his parishioners only got to see him ONCE per year. And that a lot of people in the area were converting to evangelical Christianity.

Quote:
North America has the best priest to parishioner ratio in the world: 1:1229 compared with South America at 1:7094.
http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/bishops.htm

If you can't see the relevance, then we can just drop it.

Anyway, I don't know if letting women become priests or changing the policy on contraception would help or hurt the Chruch, but the great part is, not being Catholic, this issue is purely academic to me, and I don't have to give a fuck. :D
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Old Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:42 AM       
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Originally Posted by ziggytrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Its not even our Holy City. Jerusalem is.
But since that place is a dump, why not hang out where all the pretty statues and architecture is, eh?
Actually, that was the reason why Rome was chosen. That and the fact that the seat of the Roman empire had moved to Constantinople. This meant that they could be in a very prestigeous and centtralized city without having to worry about being directly under the nose of the emperor.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2005, 08:23 PM       
[quote="ziggytrix"]
Quote:
Quote:
North America has the best priest to parishioner ratio in the world: 1:1229 compared with South America at 1:7094.
http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/bishops.htm

If you can't see the relevance, then we can just drop it.
This is a terribly slanted statistic. Let's not even get into the veracity of the source, but just think about that argument logically. There are roughly 1 billion Roman Catholics worldwide. Nearly HALF of them live in Latin and South America. So if there is a general decline in priests, of course the ratio is going to be worse in the place where there are more actual Roman Catholics. By comparison, how many Roman Catholics live in North America...? 70 million?

There is certainly a decline in priests, and it is a problem, but you could also approach this economically. The supply of priests in America (and South America) has gone down, but so has the demand. I'd be interested to know what "future church" or whoever they are consider to be a "parishioner"....? Is it someone who attends mass every Sunday? Is it someone who attends once or twice a month? Are they a holiday Catholic? A steady decline in overall Church attendance sort of counter acts a priest shortage, don't ya think?

And simply noting that there aren't enough priests for all of these parishioners excludes deacons, nuns, and laypersons who are heavily active in the Church. This isn't necessarily a desirable think either, because nothing replaces having an actual full-time priest, but to argue that people are being neglected is just silly. Roman Catholic Churches have always had revolving door parishes where parishioners rarely saw their priest, even during the "good old days" of American Catholicism. This isn't something new.

Quote:
I was listening to an interview with a priest somewhere in central/south america (I forget where exactly) and he was talking about how it was a terrible problem that his parishioners only got to see him ONCE per year. And that a lot of people in the area were converting to evangelical Christianity.
And why exactly are they converting to Evangelicalism? Is it because the town priest isn't around, so they get bored? Is it because their priest isn't maried, or isn't a woman maybe? I think that's unlikely.

Here's a pretty good article on the problem in South America. The article starts off by saying this:

"Eyes closed, hands in the air, worshippers inside the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God listen in rapture as a preacher tells them to ask for fulfillment of their innermost wishes - a new car, a bigger house, health, a better job, the return of a departed lover.

Across the plaza, worshippers inside a Roman Catholic Church shift restlessly on their pews, some yawning, as a priest drones on about resurrection.

The two churches are more than a study in contrasts - they are on the front lines of a battle being waged across Latin America between the Roman Catholic Church and evangelical Christian groups for followers - and the power, prestige and money they can bring."

There's a certain draw, particularly if you are poor and depressed, to religion. ANY religion. I can admit that. And there's a particularly GREATER draw to a religion that tells you that Jesus will make your life everything you want it to be, if of course you follow their teachings. Perhaps Roman Catholicism is a bit more glum than that, but we can't help that.

Should the Church draw upon the spirit of Vatican II, and lighten up a bit, become more evangelical, more musical, more culturally relative? Maybe. But again, none of these things have anything to do with married priests, female priests, condoms, and abortion. Do you think those South Americans converting to Evangelicalism are more liberal now on those things? Probably not.

The fastest growing Church in the U.S., if I recall correctly, is the Mormon Church. Is that how the Church should be....?
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Old Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:07 PM       
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And simply noting that there aren't enough priests for all of these parishioners excludes deacons, nuns, and laypersons who are heavily active in the Church. This isn't necessarily a desirable think either, because nothing replaces having an actual full-time priest, but to argue that people are being neglected is just silly.
Yeah that priest on the radio who was lamenting the fact that after the wedding he wouldn't see the newlyweds til he came back to town to Christen their first child was just SILLY.

Maybe I'm wrong, I've only ever been to one Catholic mass in my life, so most of what I know is based on talking to Catholic family and friends, but don't you have to confess your sins to a priest to get absolvence? Isn't that kind of a big deal for a Catholic if you can only see your priest once a year?
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Old Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:03 AM       
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Ha ha ha! The pope's a Kraut!
Ain't you?
Why yes.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:55 AM       
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Maybe I'm wrong, I've only ever been to one Catholic mass in my life, so most of what I know is based on talking to Catholic family and friends, but don't you have to confess your sins to a priest to get absolvence? Isn't that kind of a big deal for a Catholic if you can only see your priest once a year?
You're not wrong, but your exaggerating one example you heard on the radio (probably NPR, right?). In Africa, men and women walk dozens of miles on Sunday morning just to attend mass. This is across the denominational board. People living in the global "south" of the world rarely get anything conveniently,but I think that if someone REALLY needed to go to confession, and if they contacted the nearest Church, it would happen.

You should look into the missionary work of the Paulists. These men travel many hours, by train, plane, and boat, to get to some of the most remote villages in South America that can only be reached by travel down the river. They go into the deepest jungle, help people build, and offer them some faith.

So I'm sorry if I have a hard time believing that this one person just had NO WAY to confess, receive the eucharist, or whatever. And again, I'd like to know what your solution would be. If the answer for this person you heard on the radio is more priests, then how does the Church go about making that happen? Is it by becoming more liberal (which has been done and hasn't necessarily improved matters), or is it to maintain a hardline?

The problem with this discussion is that (as you basically said above) you don't really care either way. You've presented your points in a way to sem like you're presenting us with problems the Church is facing, when in reality, it seems to me that to you the Church is in fact the problem. So why even bother with the debate? Enjoy hating on Catholics?
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